[00:00:27] Jay: Hi everyone. Welcome to The First Customer podcast. My name is Jay Aigner today. I am lucky enough to be joined by Patric Shannon. He is the founder and CEO of lead snap. Patric, how are you buddy?
[00:00:40] Patric: doing well, Jay. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:41] Jay: Thanks for being on man. we're catching up a little bit. You got a lot of cool things in your background, professional poker player, the digital nomad thing, running several businesses.
so just lots of cool stuff, man. Let's jump right in. Where did you grow up and do you think that had any impact on you being an entrepreneur later in life?
[00:00:57] Patric: yeah. So I grew up in a small town in, in, in Dayton, Ohio, suburbs. The impact it had, growing up the, this, idea in the Midwest is like, you go to college, you get a good job and then you like stay in that job. You make some investments, play things pretty slow.
Right. my mom had an accounting business, so I kind of saw her. Doing that. But even within that, she was conservative and,I think there, there's obviously parts that when we grow up, um, that we're going to take with us the rest of their life. And I'm sure I have a lot of those pieces, but it kind of felt like I went against the grain for what a lot of people in Ohio do.
and where did you go after Ohio? Yeah. So, you know, I was working as a tax accountant right out of college. First job out of college was actually an SEO that only lasted a few months. Didn't boss that we were incompatible. and then, was working as a tax accountant, started playing, poker with my friends on the weekend. And then, you know, I started realizing, Hey, I'm kind of making more money playing poker with my friends on the weekend and I mean, there's alcohol involved, so like. Like, let's not toot our own horn because some of these guys were just showing up, you know, they're, they've had too much to drink. They're making bad decisions, but like online poker started to take off. So I put 50 in this, online account after a year of being scared to do that. And in about a month later, I had 10, 000 in there.
And then, um, then I want to cruise and then on the cruise, there.
was a, um. A poker tournament And the prize was another cruise and, and I won that,
And then I won a ticket to Las Vegas to play in the world series of poker. So, um, you know, I just kind of like followed my heart and went out and, um, you know, quit my job as an accountant and started, started playing poker for a living in like 2004 ish, somewhere around there.
[00:02:38] Jay: That, like you said, it's funny you say that because I remember that kind of, roller coaster or rocket of online poker became everybody was playing it. It was online. It was like, super accessible, maybe for the 1st time. Maybe that's why. Because like, nobody really had access to it. did you ride that until they kind of petered out a little bit?
Did it peter out a little bit? Like, I don't, I mean, I obviously I don't hear about as much anymore, but what was the trajectory of that industry?
[00:03:03] Patric: right. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it really started to take off when ESPN started, you could see the cards of the players.
So that, that kind of made the game exciting all of a sudden, right? Where before it was just like, nobody knows what's going on here. And then they had the commentators. So, yeah, I kind of got into it in that time period. and a lot of stuff changed along the way. the online poker was kind of the wild West when it first started. And then they started, the government started to put regulations in there and they banned online poker. And like, around 2009. And so at that point, like a lot of the poker players came to Vegas.
So, you know, I moved to Vegas and truth be told, I just, I stopped enjoying the game. you see a lot of sides of life that like, I wasn't okay with. I had like, moral convictions after a while. There's degenerate gamblers. There's just, it's an unhealthy environment. Uh, you know, I didn't really want to be around that. I kind of felt like it was making me a more negative person When I was playing online, you don't really see that side of it as much. But when it's in your face every day and years go on, I was like this, you kind of look at some of the older poker players and they look like grumpy. And I was like, that's not who I want to be, you know?
So kind of what happened next is, they legalized online poker in Nevada only. And at that point I was like, okay, great, let me get out of the casino and I'll start playing online. I got to like smoky, just like, you know, all this, like the seedy parts of Vegas on a, like seeing that on a daily basis is just not good for your soul. So I stepped out, I started playing online. Poker is really a game about people and understanding people and making adjustments to the, to their tendencies. So what you would do is you would take notes on the other players when you're playing online so that you see the username and like this player does this. So I was using a spreadsheet and it was pretty awful. It's like, couldn't, I couldn't get the information I needed.
So I actually started, you know, I was like, Hey, I'm looking for a way out of poker. Let me learn something new. So I signed up on lynda. com and I started learning like web design classes.
And then I was like, okay, I really need to understand programming and databases. So I, over the next four months or so, I build a poker note taking tool. Where I could kind of like keep track of the tendencies of the other players. So for instance, I'd have a table open here and let's say Jay was at the table.
I could look on the past hands that I played against Jay and say, okay, this is what he's doing.
[00:05:25] Jay: And then that would, that was helpful for me, but I had learned a new skill and, you know, someone had seen what I had done and they offered me a job. As a software engineer. So I spent the next three years, you know, building iPhone and Android applications,
[00:05:40] Patric: That's a, quite a switch. was a big change.
[00:05:43] Jay: so talk to me about, you know, the next part of your journey. And maybe it's not the direct next part, but you got into marketing and then like, you know, now you have lead snap and like, so what, how did you get to founding your own company from, you know, poker player or tax accountant, poker player guy, CD, you know, Vegas world.
To being a programmer and then starting your own business. Okay.
[00:06:11] Patric: yeah, absolutely. So, I'm a social person. I love people that's, you know, and when you have the skill set of a software engineer, you'll start running into like small business owners and they're like, Hey, can you build me a website? And I was like, yes, I can do this for you. I can build you this website. And after a little while, I was like, Hey, what they. business, not just a website. And the way I was building these websites, they didn't have the, they weren't structured correctly to attract the business that they needed. So I started paying attention to marketing and SEO and how can I, how can I. Make these websites be a, you know, a machine that's going to drive new customers. So that was kind of the transition. I started, I built my own agency and, you know, I think we, we started that in around 2015, 2016, somewhere around there. And as the agency grew, I started realizing, well, there's a lot of things that I would love to have that, that don't exist.
Or I couldn't find, I didn't like from like a software tools perspective. It's like, Hey, if I had this, that could give me a really big advantage in local marketing. So we started building these tools and I had no plans for this to be a software that I was going to sell to other people. I was just trying to solve my own internal business problems for my marketing agency. And you know, one of the things that I've always been huge on is like going to conferences, hiring coaches, joining masterminds, stuff like this. I was at a marketing conference, actually out in Vegas. And, having a conversation with another guy who owns a marketing agency and he's like, Hey, how do you solve this problem?
And I was like, well, you know, we built this internal tool and he's like, can I look at that? And I was like, yeah, you know, I'll show you this. I'll show you what this looks like. and I showed it to him and then he was like, can I pay you for this? And I was like, Oh, this is a business. I didn't know.
Like I was like, that's not why I was building it. And you know, uh, took a little couple more years of development where I was taking money from my marketing agency. And putting it. into the software. And
then, um, you know, we launched it in 2020. And so now it's been live for a few years and I think we, it's been cool to watch it grow, you know, it's in a bunch of different countries around the world.
And, um, so just kind of like one thing led to another and we just followed it and, you know, this is where it ended up.
[00:08:29] Jay: you said even before the show, You're kind of a big proponent of following your heart and just kind of go with the flow. And I can't really think of a place in that journey where that didn't happen. It was just 1 thing after another, and it kind of just naturally flowed into the next piece. So, And you even hit who your first customer was along the way.
So that's fantastic. how have you matured as a business owner since you kind of, not going to say stumbled your way into it, cause maybe that takes some credit away from you, but it, you know, you kind of walked through these different phases of life and ended up as a business owner.
how do you think you've matured and grown as a business owner since you first started leads now?
[00:09:06] Patric: Yeah. I wish I could go back and tell younger, naive Patric. So, so many things to have, gone faster on. You know, made a lot of mistakes, and I've learned from those mistakes, and some of them I've had to make multiple times along the way. I think there's a level of being more disciplined. I've had an issue with focus right where I want to do everything at once.
A lot of business owners fall into that kind of visionary category and, you know, realizing the limitations that I have and saying like, Hey, I could be okay at a bunch of different things, or I could be great at one thing. If I can be great at one thing. And then I can install some systems and I can move on to the next thing. Um, you know, with our software we built, we went really wide. It says all kinds of crazy things and had it to do over again, I would have just like focused on something really small, been great at it, let the customer. Opinions and the feedback not only pay for future development, but also like decide the direction. So, you know, being more in tune with the customers, being more disciplined, realizing that like having some grace for myself, that's been a big one over the last six months or so is I'm really hard on myself. You know, I think from the outside people can look and be like, Hey, you know, that guy's doing, that guy's got it together. But when things don't go as quickly as I want, then I feel like. I'm a failure and I've been learning to have some grace for myself and realize that like, Hey, you know, nobody issued you this like playbook of exactly how to run your life and run a business and deal with all the things that you'll come up with.
So just like have some love for yourself and forgive yourself for not being perfect. that's been really powerful from like an emotional standpoint. One of the things I think I would have done differently is that I would have hired, sometimes hiring cheap can actually be more expensive and I found the people that I could to work for me to help get this thing off the ground you know, just going through and reading and learning and seeing what. Amazing companies have done is they try to find the best people that they can. So now we're like changing that and like, okay, let's get somebody who's amazing at this. Let's get somebody who works at what's played for me so that they can, or it plays at what's worked for me so that they can like take this and run with this.
So a lot of lessons in there, Jay
[00:11:26] Jay: Yeah, no, lots of great lessons in there. who is your target today? Who are you going after? Who's the ideal client for lead snap?
[00:11:35] Patric: for lead snap. Yeah. So, marketing agencies that are serving local clients is huge for us. We have a tool inside of our platform so that. Within the search results of Google, for a local business, you know, you search for like plumber near me, the part of the search results that matters the most is that map area. Right. And I think that what we have with lead snap, we are the best. I think we have the best tool in the world for tracking the rankings of that area, as well as like automating some of the optimization. So with that, a lot of like, you know, small businesses, plumbers, concrete, air conditioning companies, all kinds of stuff like this, those are software makes a lot of sense for them. we have a lot of, you know, Automations towards helping get more reviews from your past customers. So, you know, I'd say that would probably be our ideal target is just like, if we could, you know, get more people to find out about our product and what we do, I think we can, I think we can help a lot of businesses.
[00:12:32] Jay: Yeah,it's,I think it's a great model because it's something, I mean, it's 1 that I stumbled upon with what we do in software quality assurance, where if we work with the custom development shop, they may have 10, 15, 20 clients that are actually come to be our clients. You guys, it's almost like a partnership, right?
It's less of a direct 1 to 1 relationship as it is like, you're marketing, right? Agency work with may have 50 companies that they work with, and they're going to use your tool to help them out. So it's a very interesting way to kind of spread the name of your brand and to kind of get usage of your product across.
[00:13:08] Patric: It's basically a partnership. Right? So it's different than just going to get a client, which is an interesting way to go about it. and they're just like completely self sufficient, whenever possible, though, we try to help them along the way.
You know, we have a software for marketing agencies that was funded by a marketing agency. So there's things that we've done that we've solved on our end. For local marketing companies in, you know, we created a Facebook group. There's a lead snap Facebook group in there where we do weekly calls. We've got a great community. We host events. So we take it a lot further than just like, Hey, use this software platform. And through that, I do think it becomes a lot more of a partnership where it's like, Hey, we're in this together with you. and, you know, at some point you, you realize that like. The value comes from impact and not just from like trying to add additional zeros into your bank account. Right. It's
what am I excited about? Right. That we made some more money or like, look at this amazing story of how this person's business has changed. But because they've taken advantage of something that we created out of the thin air, you know?
[00:14:11] Jay: Yeah, no, that's and I think, and I mean, to tie it back to sales, I mean, the most important thing that I've ever learned about sales was like, you're not selling to someone you're helping someone. And like, if you can align your business in that way, and you're actually thinking that way the entire time, then you do sell more and people do come back.
And it is the whole thing where it's like, you're, you can be genuine about trying to help people, but also. Yeah. You know, that benefits you business wise, because you become a better business and people will buy your services. so what's next for lead snap? I mean, it sounds like, you know, again, a very, episodic kind of journey for you where it's like, 1 chapter closes.
The next 1 starts. Like, what's the big next thing on the horizon for leads now?
[00:14:56] Patric: Yeah. You know, Jay, so we are kind of like repositioning the lead snap does a lot more than the Google my business stuff, right? it's a full blown CRM with automations. We built our own phone system. and through that, I think, you know, one of the mistakes that I've made is like when someone comes to our platform, maybe historically, there's been some confusion on like, okay, like, what is this?
So, like, where do I fit in or like, I'm already using this and they do that. So I guess I don't need this. Right. So now we're,
I don't know if you've read the book, a fantastic book for you entrepreneurs out there. Good to great, basically looks at, 1500 different companies that ones that, that for like the previous 15 years. they didn't beat the stock market. Their performance was okay, or poor. Then there was a transition point and everything changed. So they looked at these, they identified 11 companies that made the transition from good to great. And then they looked at things that they had in common and they came up with this idea, the hedgehog concept. So they're like Fox always chases the head hedgehog Fox knows all these things. He's really crafty. The hedgehog can do one thing. Amazing. So that great companies can do one thing amazing. And after realizing that, and this goes back to what we were talking about earlier with my focus being in different directions, I'm like, what can we be the best in the world at? So we are narrowing our focus, putting more attention into the Google My Business. I already think we're the best at that, but I want to extend that advantage. I want it to be, I want other people that are potentially trying to compete against us to be like. I don't want anything to do with that.
That, that is so well done. So we're narrowing our focus. I'm going to put all my developers into kind of one area. And we're going to blow that part out. And then we can think about the other ones down the road. But I'm going to go like hedgehog concept on this. Like, this is what we can be the best in the world at. just like probably many of you guys on the entrepreneur journey. You keep learning and adjusting and learning and adjusting and getting better and better. So I'm taking the personal lessons I've learned and try to steer Leadsnap in a better direction.
[00:16:54] Jay: I love that. That'll be my takeaway from today is to get back to being the best at 1 thing. because like you said, it is very easy to do as a business owner, to be pulled in 50 different directions and have a bunch of different initiatives going. And I think even, you know, Marcel, was 1 that I talked to early on about, Establishing the people, the processes, whatever, in each kind of area and then moving on to the next, but you got to really hone in and get that one area done first and then move on. So, lots of awesome lessons in here, man. if people want to reach out to you, Pat, if they want to, find lead snap or how do they do that?
[00:17:29] Patric: Yeah, leadsnap. com. Um, so are we, you know, we have the form submissions. We have the, the support there. You can also Patricshannon. com. I don't have a K on my name. that will get to me. So yeah, either one of those I'm active on LinkedIn, on Facebook. I have a very unique spelling of my name with no K on, on Patric.
So. and, you know, I pride myself on trying to be approachable. you know, for me, Jay, we're talking a little bit before the show. I'd love to have, try to have an impact on people. So, that means coming on podcasts and connecting with new people, you know, and seeing if there's a way that, that we can, that I can help, or we can help each other somehow, you know,
[00:18:04] Jay: Absolutely, man. All right. Well, Patric, you're fantastic.I love the journey, man. And, excited to see what's next for you guys. So stay in touch and we'll talk again soon. All right.
[00:18:12] Patric: okay, Jay,
[00:18:13] Jay: Thanks, Patric.
[00:18:13] Patric: for having me on.