JAY AIGNER 

 0:06 

 This is the first customer hosted by Jay Agner. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 0:13 

 Hi, everyone. Jay Agner here. Welcome to the first customer. Today I'm lucky enough to be joined by Alex Nordlinger. He is the CEO of Materialized Labs. Hi, Alex. How are you doing? Hey, 

 JAY AIGNER 

 0:23 

 Jay. Thanks for having me on. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 0:25 

 Yeah, man. Good to have you. You are a Southern California guy. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 0:29 

 That's right. Born and raised. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 0:32 

 Such a jealousy comes over me when I think of living over there. Yeah. 3s All right, so you said born and raised. Look, you run a similar business to me in the sense that we both run agencies. You've got the dev thing kind of rolling, which is which is really cool. I think you're in an interesting part of your business where you're figuring out all sorts of value props and marketing stuff and fun business stuff. But let's take a step back to how you even got there. So you grew up in SoCal. Where did you come from, and were your parents entrepreneurs when you were a 

 JAY AIGNER 

 1:15 

 kid? No, they were not. I kind of got bit by the entrepreneur bug early, but, yeah, I'm born and raised in Los Angeles, 1s Santa Monica. Grew up by the beach. 1s And my parents, my dad was in entertainment industry, which is pretty typical being in La. 2s And my mom, she was more or less a homemaker. She now, like, runs, like, little Etsy store and makes art projects and seashell stuff. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 1:48 

 She's an entrepreneur to see. Yeah. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 1:51 

 There you go. 1s She runs her own business, and she's been doing it for longer than I have. Much longer. 2s But yeah, born and rage. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 2:02 

 Wow. Alright, so where'd you go to college or did you go to college? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 2:06 

 I went to UC, Santa Barbara. Okay. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 2:09 

 What do you go to school for? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 2:11 

 English. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 2:12 

 OK, so you're not doing anything related to, I guess you're speaking English? I guess that count. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 2:17 

 Yes. With me, to communicate better. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 2:22 

 What was the goal of the industry? What were you going for? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 2:24 

 So, growing up, my parents were not really into tech, but my grandfather was lucky enough to have a grandfather who was basically obsessed with Apple and he was always getting the coolest new Apple products. This is before iPhone and before ipod, way back in the day, before even the imac came out with using OS Nine. And I was just always fascinated by computers. I just took a passion towards it. I don't know how to explain it, I just was obsessed, like, when it came to computers and anything tech related. So I started teaching myself to code, like ten years old. But I had always thought that maybe I can apply what I know about computers towards something. Like I'd like to write, I like to think I was a pretty good writer towards something like the legal industry, being a lawyer. And I was thinking, oh, I already have the tech background. If I major in English, it'll help me towards going to law school. And like quickly into my college career, I realized that's not what I want to do and it's the English major. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 3:36 

 Right, okay. All right. So you went after English. Did you do anything with that degree after you graduated? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 3:42 

 No, not a thing. 2s I didn't graduate, I left. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 3:49 

 I didn't graduate from my first college. I went to VCU for like I called it 13th grade is what it felt like. It was like, this is not for me. 2s I did go to full sale though, and I did finish that one. So 1s you left college and then what? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 4:09 

 Yeah. So started college, went to UCSF, the Santa Barbara Tier, California, the Central coast, and it's not much different than growing up in Santa Monica. I'm a surfer. I just wanted to keep surfing and I like the beach a lot, so that fed into my decision to go there a lot. 1s And like, in school, I guess it's. I was kind of done going to school, honestly, like, I didn't feel like I was getting much out of it in college. It was really hard for me to work really, really long, tough hours just to get a grade back. Like, it just wasn't fulfilling or rewarding in the lease. And I had worked, done some internships, like, where I actually made money, like, programming the stuff I actually love to do. And when I was in school, I just wasn't getting anything out of it other than the fun we were having in terms of growing in my career and whatnot. So I left school and I went just straight into work because that's what I actually enjoy doing. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 5:21 

 Programmer 

 JAY AIGNER 

 5:23 

 treated, being a programmer. Like I said, I had kind of taught myself how to code, like, starting at ten years old. I was infatuated with the web in particular, and I remember my dad picked up like a flyer, like a laminated flyer with some HTML, like, cheat sheet stuff on it. Yeah, this is Tables, back when tables were all the rage and GeoCities is where you hosted your site. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 5:48 

 I remember those days. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 5:52 

 Every year I am looking for my old GeoCities website all over 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 5:57 

 me, too. 2s There's a new Bits, our next business, dude 1s Hunters. Dude from the 90s who made shitty websites 

 JAY AIGNER 

 6:07 

 if I could find it, because I remember I made, like, a blog before blogs existed, and it was like a live journal blog, but I would just write in my HTML table, 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 6:17 

 update whatever I was doing, and I can't find it. And it's killing me. But yeah, I learned that way. Everything I've learned has basically been self taught on the job when it comes to what I do, like writing code and stuff. And I had worked as an engineer for startups or some established companies too, like, in high school over the summer, and that's where I was. Like, I love making money, to be honest. I just absolutely love getting a paycheck. And it was like $10 an hour at the time, like, when I had my first internship in Hollywood, on Hollywood Boulevard is a 

 JAY AIGNER 

 7:00 

 terrible place to work, terrible place to go, 2s but yeah, I love doing it. And I learned more on the job than I could by teaching myself others there to instruct me. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 7:14 

 When was that? How old were you when you were doing that 

 JAY AIGNER 

 7:17 

 first internship? I was 16. Okay. Yeah. So I literally came in, I was like, yeah, yeah, I can do HTML, right? And they were like, JavaScript, okay, I'll do it. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 7:35 

 Between kind of leaving college and doing the programmer thing, 1s and now obviously a lot happened. 2s What were the steps for me to kind of jumping out and saying, I want to do a programmer? Because that's that's what I found to be passionate about. Which is amazing that you took that leap because a lot of people don't. 3s What is the desire to start your own actual business instead of just working for others as a consultant? How does that kind of build up? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 8:09 

 Yeah, when I was a kid, 2s the first thing I did before having any sort of programming job was like six computers around the neighborhood, actually. Like, there was a guy at my school who graduated and he had a little It business fixing people, like routers and stuff around the neighborhood. And he was going to school and he was like, let me pass my clients off to you. You can take over. So I made flyers and stuff, trying to win business that's my parents and parents, friends and friends, parents and stuff like that. So that was my first real entrepreneurship. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 8:49 

 How many people responded to the ads? 2s Did you get feedback? That's got to be weird as a kid to advertise the service and get people. You probably don't realize at the time, like, how big of a deal it is. I know, I didn't think about it. I just thought, like, let me make some scratch and spending money and just feel good about what I was doing. And I get dropped off at people's houses by my parents to do the work because there's no Uber and I didn't have my license. 2s Looking back, like, look, I didn't have any system in place to manage my leads and see what my conversion rate was, but I was just like, 

 JAY AIGNER 

 9:35 

 yeah, that was my first taste of, like, entrepreneurship, I guess. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 9:42 

 Alright, talk to me about materialize. What was the genesis? So while I was programming, like, working for companies, 2s I enjoy what I do, I enjoy learning, enjoy working for people. And I always knew I wanted to start my own business, but I never knew what it would be. When I was maybe 20, early twenties and twenties. 2s I was working at, like, a software development studio, basically a really small app, web and mobile app shop in, like, Marina del Rey. And we were working for clients, and the owner of the business 1s had some big, big name brands he was doing work for, unless we were doing work for. And I got a glimpse of his margin. He was paying me, like, dog crap. And I was happy at the time with that kind of rate. And then I saw when he was charging the clients this more than I charged my clients till to this day, and this is, like, almost ten years ago. And I was like, oh, my God, I could do a much better job than he is managing these things. I just need to get those clients somehow, because they were like, Fortune 100 tech brands. And how do you get those relationships? That's what I learned. But, yeah, that was when it gave me the idea that, okay, running like a dev shop is awesome because you get to work on many projects at once and charge the rates and hire the people to do a lot of the work for you and while you run the business and stuff like that. So that gave me the idea that something like that could work. But it was still was not like, another six or eight years before I thought, okay, it's time to do it myself. So I was working as an engineering manager at a nonprofit. Actually, I built a team. I was a principal engineer. And then we had a big project that I convinced the stakeholders to go and do, and I had to hire a whole team. And I was like, sure, I can do it just like everything else in my life. I just fix it till I make it mentality, 

 JAY AIGNER 

 11:58 

 right? That's how entrepreneurs get stuff done, really. I built a team, I hired, and I learned how to fire and all this stuff, makes people happy, manage projects. And it was like, fired by fire. And that went pretty well, and that gave me confidence and some insight into, like, oh, I can just hire people to do things with me, work on projects outside of work. Because as a software engineer, you get a lot of people coming to you with ideas of projects or products that they want to build. And I think most programmers have side 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 12:37 

 gig, 

 JAY AIGNER 

 12:39 

 like supplementing, like, whatever they're doing full time. So I could only do one at a time, right? Only one side gig, like, Like, barely even put any time towards any side gig. And I was like, Well, I can stop saying no 1s more side gigs if I can get more people to work for me with me on stuff that people are coming to me with. So that was, like, four years ago. Go. And, yeah, it grew from there, really. Like, I think the first project that came in was a friend of mine who needed assistance, and I was like, I can do it with a team member. And they were like, okay, we don't care who does this. Like, if you can do it, you can do it. And then, yeah, I just, like, kind of hit the ground running from there. But it was still a side project at that time. It's interesting because 1s you and I have a very similar trajectory and arc in that story, but 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 13:41 

 it's interesting how, 3s having an agency, you end up with the same problems, right? You figure it out to some degree, and then you kind of run to the same problems. And there's a lot of people like us. They're in the same boat trying to figure it out. Even after being, quote, unquote, successful business owners, we kind of stumbled through it. We figured it out. And like you said, it always usually starts with that side hustle. But I used to have to. 1s You know, basically work on a project and then gain the trust of that person. And then, hey, I've got somebody else. And then at some point, I realized I don't have to do that. I don't have to do the thing where I start and then I do something else. And you have the same same thing, right? Yes. But when you look back, could you have just done that from the start? Could you have just created a plan? Or did you need to get in there yourself to get your hands dirty to understand how to make that pitch later? You 

 JAY AIGNER 

 14:46 

 know what I mean? Yeah. I feel like I probably could have started earlier, but I didn't have the experience of managing a team well. 2s Like, if I had started before I progressed, it became like a manager and I was the CEO of a startup for a brief moment, 1s I probably wouldn't have ran a very successful company, or I would have had a lot more trouble learning how to run it. 1s I probably wouldn't have had the same confidence. But that doesn't mean I don't wish I started when I thought I should, because all the people that came to me in the last six to eight years that I was just saying, if you got a full time job I can't help you with, like, I could have said yes to, and I probably would have learned a lot faster and quicker and harder. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 15:39 

 Yeah. And at some point, you got enough confidence and experience that you're able to pivot that sales pitch to more of like, hey, I have a team from the start, then having to meet this person, work with them a little bit, gain their trust, and then kind of introduce these people as you've already got that relationship built. But the only difference is experience, and it's really experience. Right. That's the only difference between when you first send those out and you kind of like try to and confidence, you build your confidence like, oh, I could do that. I could pitch straight at these people and say, here's what I have, here's the team. But I think when you're really early on, it's easy to be scared of losing business too. You want to do everything. You never want to say no to anybody. Oh my God. Have you found it easier to say no as your business has grown and matured? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 16:33 

 I'm saying no more than I say yes at this point. 2s Budgets, types of work, 3s what people are willing to spend, the size of the project. I am pretty firm on what I know I'm good at and materialized is good at delivering on. Right. So I'll be up for it and honest and 1s it I have more confidence, really, it just comes down to that, that I don't need to say yes to everything and beat myself up on crazy small projects that. 1s Like, people want the most from you on. And that's what I found, is like, the smaller the project, the smaller the budget, the less the resources they want, the more care and attention they expect. And then you end up working your ass off for like, small all potatoes and going like, way over budget and trying to make these people happy. So, yeah, I learned that the hard way. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 17:38 

 I think you're right. 1s Yeah. The smaller, more nitpicky ones are always 1s not even worth it. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 17:47 

 Oh my God. It ends up being way more expensive than the biggest clients. You can get 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 17:54 

 the headaches themselves. Aren't they're so big they're not worth it? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 18:01 

 You have to say yes, 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 18:04 

 that's true. You got to put the groundwork in. Yeah, 3s I know you got a lot of work from referrals and stuff like that. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 18:16 

 It's easy to not have a niche on Upwork, I think. I think starting a business through Upwork, as long as you are sales enough and you can kind of make a good pitch and you can do whatever, you can be fine and upwork, but did you start to 1s kind of. 1s Recognize your identity and, like, realize I don't want to call a niche because, again, I don't think I didn't get by on work without having one. So you don't have to develop on there. Haven't spoken to you for a while. I know that you've been working on it. When and how did you start to kind of identify like, oh, this is the type of project just that we're better at, or These are the type of clients I want to work with. Like, what was your 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 18:55 

 process to whittle that down a little bit? I'm 

 JAY AIGNER 

 18:58 

 still figuring that out, like you said, trying to niche down. But when I first started the company, the first project 1s I got where I hired someone to help me fulfill the role on it, that was when I was still working full time at another company. And then the real first project we had where I went full time, I was basically had some savings, and I was about to get married, so it wasn't like the best time. Married life started family and a new business at the same time. But I basically knew that I did pretty well working on my friends projects. And if I could just duplicate that many times over, things would go really well for me because 1s it's like two X, three x, four X, like, nearly. And I signed up for upwork because I was actually looking for talent on there. I was like, looking for a new and I'll think shopify engineer. And while I was doing that, this is when I was still working full time. I was like, oh, they have like a freelancer type 2s role you can sign up for or whatever. I'll just sign up. And I ended up getting a project through Upwork, and that was the first project that I still work on, material I still work on that show me up work would work for getting new clients and that I can find people that aren't through my network. Right. So I created that freelancer account that I'm still working with today. And there was no niche. I think I got the project because I came way under in terms of price of anybody else. And the guy I met with my background was in application development, and he wasn't scared of me hiring my own team to do it. So that first project, like I said, I'm still running. I took equity in exchange for a significant price decrease. And I was just like, 1s I left my job, my full time job where I was getting a paycheck and a little bit of savings and basically only this. And I basically ran the numbers. I was like, I can just barely pay all my bills if I just have this one project. And that's a good foundation because I'll just start building on top of that. So I got the project. It, and I was like, I got to hire, I got to figure it out. I got to set the company in LLC. I do everything all at once. And I hired the worst people ever, and they were way overpriced. And I was doing everything, like cut rate, cutting corners, doing a lot myself. A lot of the coding was being done by me. And yeah, it was like a really funny way to start. But up work just basically began from there. And I've had a lot of trouble niching down because software development 1s by design, you can work on anybody that wants to build software. So web applications, mobile applications, whatnot. 1s But I've tried to identify those industries that we've done the most work in because we have a portfolio, case studies we can show and then try to target customers in those verticals. But up work has been an insane source for many of our projects. I was talking to you yesterday about it. Like, over 50% of the projects we've gotten, and a lot of those projects that we've been working on for years came from Upworks, which is not available. Very unreliable, 2s really finicky like, terrible platform, but it's done wonders for materialized. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 22:56 

 Yeah, 3s it's a great marketplace. They've got great marketing, 3s a lot to be desired user experience wise and monetarily, but it is a great marketplace. I wonder 

 JAY AIGNER 

 23:15 

 since. 2s Since 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 23:17 

 the jobs are so targeted in Upwork that you pick up. And if you grow a business inside of Upwork, then you're just picking up very targeted stuff. I think it probably makes people like us even more hyper scared, niche down. Because we go, well, we've only seen four of those jobs jobs on Upwork in the last four years. And you go, Why would I why would I just go fintech? But in reality, there's an entire universe of fintech companies out there, people out there trying to start fintech. So I think it's been a blessing and a curse. And as I've started to step out and I think as you continue to step out and take those responsibilities off or do whatever you're going to do, it makes it a little easier to reflect back and be like, oh, my business today isn't necessarily defined by how I created it and Upwork. Right? You don't have to live in that vein anymore. It's scary as shit. Yes, we got to restart basically from scratch. But 2s you have a low project count, which is different than us. We have a high project count. 2s How have you like, what are some of the kind of foundational things you've done to make sure those clients stay happy? Since you don't have many, you have to keep them happy. Like, is it 1s you doing the kind of dedication to make sure those clients stay in, or you got other people doing what is your customer retention looks like? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 24:43 

 Yeah. So for the most part, the projects we work on, the custom, they're bespoke applications, mobile apps, web apps, and nine times out of ten, there's going to be some sort of support and maintenance as a part of building that platform. So over the years, when I first started, I didn't have any residual income coming in from the support and maintenance agreements I had with clients. But now 1s we have worked on enough platforms to where we have enough recurring revenue that has allowed me to scale a little bit better. But yeah, the projects we work on almost always needs some sort of maintenance. So, like you said, we have very small projects, I think 1s in relation to the revenue that we're doing, it's really small. So that's what I'm trying to scale rapidly. 1s And it's because they're super high value projects. We work on them for a really long time, and we work really closely with our customers because we serve as, like, the engineering department that they don't have. We provide everything out of the box, like software development as a service. So in the beginning, I was doing so much of all the work, 1s getting the clients. I was doing the sales closing and proposals, and I was writing proposals that were like, super in depth and basically giving away the game plan for free. And I wasn't winning stuff. I've learned a lot in terms of how to write proposals and who to write proposals for. I could go on for years about it. But yeah, I was doing everything. I was managing the project. I was doing on the hiring. I was doing a lot of the deployments and the DevOps. I wasn't doing most of the coding, but I was like engineering manager, project manager, invoicing sales time, tracking 2s QA. I'm doing all the QA myself. Engineers, as you know, should not do QA, but I was doing it, and I just had to teach myself so much crap. 2s I hit a limit where I couldn't actually work on many projects at the time because of all the attention each project took from me. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 27:09 

 Again, 1s you hit your second 1s what do they call it, a task saturation. When you're a pilot, you have to many tasks at the same time your tasks. That trade 

 JAY AIGNER 

 27:21 

 came my limit. And there was a time where I had to stop sending up. I literally couldn't entertain a single idea. And I I knew knew I was like, well, when I finished these products these projects were working on, I need to keep the pipeline moving because this is going to get delivered. And then I have nothing. And I literally didn't have the time. I was working like 16 hours days. And my engineers are all outsourced offshore. The teams are all over the place. My clients are on shore. So it's just like I was up all the time. I was working all the time. And I was registered. And I knew from listening to podcasts and doing a lot of reading and meeting with other business owners, I was like, I knew I needed to hire 2s because the engineers I had on law very early on, I knew where to go to hire and how to hire people. Well, in terms of engineering talent and I'm an engineer, so I can do that pretty well. And management, like management operations, that kind of support I was afraid to hire for because I was like, well, I'm really busy right now, but I need to pay someone six figures to do some of the work I do because it's really technical. 1s What if I lose the project tomorrow or like, my pipeline runs dry and like, I got to pay someone six figures to do stuff and it's so much to teach. Our processes aren't like everybody else's. And so I just held off from hiring. I was just like saving money, like putting everything away that I didn't have to spend on operational costs and is building up a big safety net, essentially, right? And I should have hired a lot earlier. I should have hired that supporter work because I wouldn't have been killing myself as much. 3s But it took me a long time before I really was ready because I was so conservative. And I still am pretty conservative with spending money. 1s So there's a lot of fear fear involved. And I think fear is very common for entrepreneurs in general. But it took me way longer than it should have to see what works and then double down on it. Right. Instead of putting money in the stock market, which just got wiped out right. Last few years, if I had put that in my business, which is working extremely well and providing really good returns, I would have gotten a much better result than I did in the stock market. Right, right. So I think just understanding what's working and what you need to continue growth is key. And just to get out of the fear a little bit. Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. It's the most important things that you put off. You know, it's like a, oh, my God, I can still do it myself. So I was like, why am I going to have someone else do it? Yeah. 2s And 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 30:25 

 there's nothing to sit there for, like, weeks on end. You just need to get done. I showed you my list yesterday. I have a giant leader. The only thing that's not moving that leads us to me. It's just me. I'm the only one. 1s All right, so you were working 16 hours days. You're killing yourself. You have come to be probably in a better place. Now tell me, 2s how are you? You have a kid, you're married, you have a business, and a lot of people that count and depend on you. So how are you trying to keep yourself alive for a long time? What are you doing to stay healthy these days? Anything? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 31:05 

 Well, part of the reason I started my own business is I wanted to work for myself and stop taking direction from someone who controls my 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 31:14 

 paycheck, even though clients do that to some extent. But if you have enough of them, you can say, good luck. 1s I love to surf. Like, surfing is one of my biggest passions, and I was super limited because there are so many variables the weather, the tide, the wind, the swell conditions, and you can't just say, oh, I have an appointment to go surf on Saturday. It's just like, a waves are coming, and I want to go surf. And with a full time job, I couldn't do that because I just couldn't get up and go. Part of the reason I started my own company, I was like, I want to surf when I want to surf. Funny thing is, now I'm married with the kids, I can surf very little. But that was like a big reason for wanting to go out on my own. Like, I just want to be able to surf when I want to surf. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 32:09 

 So staying healthy is like focusing on surfing. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 32:17 

 Are you sleeping at all? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 32:18 

 No, I sleep pretty well, actually. In the beginning, first with the business, I wasn't sleeping well because I was working a lot and always nervous. And then we had the baby and 1s newborns aren't the easiest to get an eight hour sleep. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 32:36 

 I can hear mine screaming in the other room. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 32:40 

 I have to send mine out. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 32:42 

 Yeah, I was surprised if I have to edit out some baby cries in the background. 1s What about your diet? Do you just a normal, just eating whatever kind of guy? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 32:52 

 Yeah, I would go back and forth. I think I go through extremes, honestly. I started doing more of the fasting type diet, one meal a day, and I'll just skip a day sometimes, and it honestly made me feel amazing. But I've gone through like, phases where I just eat whatever the hell I want as many times in the day I want. And that used to work for me when I was a lot younger. Almost 34. Tomorrow is my birthday. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 33:24 

 Happy early birthday. How about that? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 33:27 

 Wow. This is my birthday 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 33:28 

 present. 1s This is such a delayed birthday present. 8s So there you go. Well, you're going to start your own someday because we're all going on the same path. I think eventually 3s I did the fasting thing too. I like that. 2s It definitely works. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 33:56 

 It was like trying to limit how much I can eat for three meals a day and the type of food I'm eating. Like keto diets, I can't do that at all. It just doesn't work for me. But fasting really does because it's just trying not to think about food for a while. 2s I just feel better. I'm not trying to pick and choose what it is I'm eating on the plate and the portion size. Like, sometimes one meal a day and it's a big meal. It's mostly what I want. 1s Go visit. That's beautiful. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 34:31 

 I'm a fan of. 2s The intermittent fasting stuff too. Yeah, it works. It does work. 2s I'm not a doctor. I'm the same with you. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 34:45 

 The 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 34:46 

 only thing that I have that people always tell you, like, 1s don't go too hard to a diet, don't whatever, because they're going to never sick. Which is true. But the one thing I have pulled out of those extremes is some like individual things that have enjoyed from each one of them, right? Like, I was a vegetarian for a while, so I put a couple of meals that I still eat and then I could try doing the fasting thing. And I know now what kind of food I shouldn't eat at night. So pouring out little things you learn from each of those diets I think is probably just as good as staying normal. And 

 JAY AIGNER 

 35:19 

 that's the thing. It's not one size fits all, any of these diets. So you kind of got to figure out what works for you and your body. We're 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 35:29 

 just like a golf from monkeys that grew up in different parts 

 JAY AIGNER 

 35:32 

 of the world. 2s I don't think we figured this whole thing out yet. All right, so I did tell you. There's a question that I love to ask everybody. 1s What would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 35:48 

 It can be in any context that you want. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 35:53 

 What would I do? So 1s in the context of materialize? 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 36:00 

 In the context of anything? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 36:02 

 Yes, that's a good question. 2s It's a great question. 3s I would just have a bunch of kids. I have a huge family. 1s You can 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 36:16 

 do that anyway. You 

 JAY AIGNER 

 36:18 

 don't have income, you're screwed. You don't want to screw those kids 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 36:22 

 back. That's true. I don't know. I've been to some parts of South America that 

 JAY AIGNER 

 36:29 

 we get that 1s and I would just start going hard on the business and putting everything I've got back into it. 1s This sounds like what we're going to do over the next few weeks. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 36:49 

 What is something you've never done because you're afraid of it or you're afraid of it going wrong? Maybe it's a different way to answer the question. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 36:57 

 I think we've talked about this before. Maybe pilot's license. Oh, 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 37:01 

 pilot's license. Perfect. There you go. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 37:03 

 There you go. The one I always use, the example I use after I let somebody answer is my wife's cousin Kim said, Climb Everest. I'm like, that's the perfect that's a great answer. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 37:26 

 Awesome. Dude, you should definitely go to your local airport, actually. 2s There's a training thing for the flight simulator. I think I told you as a big flight SIM guy. But there's a service you can sign up for and it's a virtual air traffic control and there's literally like people in sitting at desks, like routing virtual traffic to these airports in California. And you use it to train? I use it because I was having trouble flying the airplane and learning to talk at the same time. 1s I've flown all around Santa Monica and the Bob Hope airport and all around, 3s go to one of those airports, get a Discovery flight and go do it. It's awesome. It'll change your life. I got to get my written exam done. 1s Good luck. I know they're tough 3s memorization. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 38:25 

 Yeah, 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 38:26 

 it's work. It's work. Which I don't like to do. 1s All right, dude, I think we're good. Let's wrap it. You were fantastic. 2s I think it's a really cool story. Yeah, it's fun to do it again sometime. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 38:38 

 Yeah, it's great. It's a good format. You got it down. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 38:41 

 Is it too cold to surf right now over there? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 38:44 

 No, it's never too cold because you just put on Wednesday. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 38:47 

 So you surf year round? 

 JAY AIGNER 

 38:49 

 Year round. Winter is the best. Pretty much globally, winter is on the big storms, so that's when the biggest swells 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 38:56 

 come. Dude, I had no idea. No, I learned something. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 39:01 

 Winter is preferable 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 39:05 

 and you're fine. 

 JAY AIGNER 

 39:07 

 Wetsuit booties. You need some booties sometimes. 5s Maybe the 40s here. I don't think I get cold. Right, well, don't cheat and buy a shark or free somewhere. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 39:22 

 We'll catch up again soon, buddy. Thank you. I appreciate 

 JAY AIGNER 

 39:24 

 it. That's fun. 

 ALEX NORDLINGER 

 39:26 

 Alright, thank you. See ya.