[00:00:27] Jay: Hi everyone, welcome to The First Customer Podcast. Today, I am very, very lucky to be joined by Etienne de Bruin. He is the CEO and founder of 7CTOs and the founder of CTO Levels. Did I get all that right? That was a mouthful.

[00:00:41] Etienne: Yes, maybe not the founder of CTO Levels, the creator of

CTO Levels. Or maybe the discoverer.

[00:00:50] Jay: Discoverer, that's a cool title. I would like to have

[00:00:54] Etienne: Yeah, I

feel like, 

[00:00:55] Jay: title.

[00:00:56] Etienne: feel like CTO Levels existed and I just happened to stumble upon it.

[00:01:02] Jay: You're like the Christopher Columbus of CTO Levels.

[00:01:07] Etienne: that, is CTO, who is that? Is that like a good person or a bad person?

[00:01:12] Jay: Well, we used to think he was a good person growing up. He was like the discoverer of America, but really he just happened to be here looking for the West Indies and called it, a new world. So anyway, it existed. There were people here. He already, there were already people here. Yeah. He discovered it, which I always found to be interesting, but we're not here to talk about, you know, Galileo, not Galileo, Amerigo Vespucci and all those discoverers.

Although I find explorers very interesting. We'll talk about you as a discoverer today. Where are you based out of? Are you in San Diego?

[00:01:41] Etienne: Yes, I'm in San Diego, Wife and I moved here 20 plus years ago. I'm South African, born and raised and then, got my computer science degree in South Africa with Stellenbosch university, and then got an opportunity to go work in Germany with a startup or in the, network encryption space, and then. Yeah, in 2000, we thought we'd spend a few years in San Diego and then turned into two decades.

[00:02:17] Jay: When you grew up in South Africa, did that have any impact on you being an entrepreneur later in life?

[00:02:25] Etienne: Huh, that's a great question.I'm gonna say there was, there is a pretty strong entrepreneurial spirit in South Africa.and maybe that is because, you know, smaller economy, Kind of have to make your own future. Lots of ideas. Southern tip of Africa. Yeah, I think there's a several factors probably, you know, multicultural, isolation, you know, for many years we were isolated from the rest of the world because of our atrocious policies.I think that did Like coal turns into diamonds. I think that pressure does create a different worldview.

[00:03:14] Jay: It's interesting you say that because I grew up in rural America and I've met a lot of other entrepreneurs who grew up in rural isolated areas, especially ones that were kind of around the right age when the internet really took off. And so you had these people who were isolated. Who immediately had access to everything in the world.

I kind of gave them this ability to create things while being isolated, while also connected with the rest of the world. So it's interesting that whole country, maybe kind of follows that same philosophy. so. I know you, you may have the longest. work experience of any person I've ever seen on LinkedIn.

I think there's about 400, 000 different entries in there. We don't have to go through all of them, but 

[00:04:06] Etienne: be the oldest, it must be the oldest guest you've had

[00:04:08] Jay: not the oldest, surprisingly, not the oldest, but definitely the most, worked. I would say you've been worked, you know, very heavily and engaged in a lot of different things. We don't have to go into all of them, but kind of talk me through.

You know, kind of being the startup guy, you bounce on Germany, you come to America, you do these different things. How do we get from there? To where you are today.

[00:04:31] Etienne: Yeah. I, you know, I think for you, you mentioned sort of the being born at the right time in a way. you know, I think the wave of personal computing, I often think about Silicon Valley is not really. A technological. Um,origin or haven or a innovation center. I think sometimes I think of Silicon Valley most more as a, Hey, let's just pile a bunch of new or old ideas onto some new technologies, you know?

So, Hey, what does the technology give us to, that we can just. Put this new, this old business or this old idea on top of, and so it's not, I don't think so much of tech, Silicon Valley and I'll, I'm giving you a longer answer. I don't think of Silicon Valley always as a technology epicenter, but more of a Vegas roll of the dice.

And let's see if my, dumb idea on top of new technology creates something that people will buy.and I think that. For me personally, the, that story is similar when I was 12, 13, the, you know, the dawn, I was 12, 13 in the eighties and personal computing made it to South Africa.

I don't know how, but I had friends. You know, I reflect on this. I had friends in different blocks of the neighborhood. And I realized now that I had friends based on what computer they had, you know? So I was the Vic 20 guy, the Commodore guy, the Amiga guy, the Texas instruments guy, the ZX Spectrum guy.and, I think that I was just. a kid with this new technology being birthed, which gave us the ability to create anything our minds could think of. and, you know, think about the power that gives a 10 year old, 11 year old, 12 year old, you know, growing up in more of an authoritarian household,

[00:06:48] Jay: And 

[00:06:51] Etienne: and, you know, lots of, now you can't.

And then suddenly you go into this little computer and anything is possible, you know, it's just like create whatever you want. And I think that's a reason why Minecraft is so popular because, you know, regardless of the graphics and whatever limitations exist, it's just. You can do anything you want in this world. And I think that with PCs and then very quickly after that, the advent of the internet, which was particularly meaningful for South Africans. Because we were boycotted and a lot of sort of, you know, magazines weren't making it to South Africa. And when I say that as a kid, you know, computing magazines, you know, we just saw, we read about magazines in, The only magazines we could get.

So,information was limited. Connection was limited, you know, back then writing letters to your idols or your families was limited. And so you've got this PC. Revolution that's followed by this connectivity revolution. And I was right at the end, then in South Africa, I was a 18 year old when Nelson Mandela was released.

Okay. opportunity mindset. And so, yeah, that's where I'm from.

and so, I didn't ever really see myself as either an employee or a corporate guy versus a startup guy. I just saw sort of this evolution. I always saw myself as my own boss, even though I had bosses. And even though I just saw myself as well, a, my skill is highly desirable. I always had the feeling that my bosses wanted me more than I wanted them.I felt like opportunities were limitless. And so I never really saw myself as an employee of somebody. I saw myself more as

a crafting my own path. And it just So, happens that in 2003, 2004, that path was just. My own thing. And I started my own, company, which was really great because I coded my own little app, it's kind of that dream where you code your little app, and then you find someone who wants to do something with the app, and then you co found a company and then you hire more people and then you know, get more customers. And then you start talking about millions and millions of dollars. And 

you're sort of living that dream. And that was huge. that, I think that helped me find the meaning of life for me in a way, which was, to really empower and create dreams through technology leaders and the so called CTO today. And that led me then to, when we sold our company, it led me to found seven CTOs in 2013. And, Yeah,I like to say I am a people, I love people and programming and, you know, I'm sort of a raging extrovert as well. So I don't see myself as an extrovert anymore, but back then I was sort of the odd person in the CTO community because I was very, very focused on relationships is the key to growth, not the. The accumulation of technology, knowledge, and experience.

[00:10:39] Jay: right,

[00:10:40] Etienne: And so I was really the only voice in my circles. That was not the more, you know, the better you'll be. It was like who you knew. And who you could learn from that would make you an exceptional CTO. And that really is, the impetus behind seven CTOs and something I'm really passionate about to this day, which is 10, 10 plus years later, I'm still building seven CTOs.

[00:11:10] Jay: where'd the name come from? All

[00:11:13] Etienne: I started it off as an offshoot. So there was a CTO community called the LACTO forum. And I. Found out from the San I'm in San Diego. So I found out a lot of the, a lot of my CTO friends were driving up to LA and I actually tried to just contact themand say, Hey, can we just create a San Diego CTO forum as sort of a chapter of your organization? Well, they blew me off as some crazy person, and Tony and I, Tony's the founder of this LACTO forum and him and I laugh about that many years later, but he remembers sort of, and I'm sure he was solicited all the time. I was just trying to be practical. And I was like, Hey, tell me what you guys do. And I will do it in San Diego.

And they were like, thank you, but no, thank you. So I started the San Diego CTO forum just as a meetup. And then I,we mostly did dinners and then we, I started hosting Austin CTO forum, and then I went to Portland CTO forum, Seattle CTO. So I thought CTO forum would just be my thing. But here's a very interesting thing that happened was, remember I wanted to create the forums because I needed, and I remember I said I wasn't going to get help really from knowing more.

I needed to just learn from other people's experiences. Well, when we had about 300 people in our CTO forum network, Super informal and I started getting vendors who wanted to sponsor our dinners and just went down that route. So then I decided, okay, I'm going to take this little supposedly solid community that I have and I'm going to host a whiteboard session where we sit around the whiteboard and welet's take a problem and let's really dig into the problem and let's learn from each other.

Well, that was a disaster. You know, these guys who were sharing drinks and war stories and showing up to all our dinners could not have an adult conversation. about the topic at hand, which in those days, I think the topic I picked was virtualization. So I think it was right at the advent of people moving away from bare metal servers to virtualizing inside of Amazon.

I think that

back then, yeah. And it was a, it was terrible. it was a horrible conversation. People were strong manning each other. People were, people couldn't, they had no empathy for each other. It was my way or the highway. And people respectfully disagreed when they were really being super disrespectful. And that's when I realized, okay, the only way I'm going to kill this whole idea of dinners and chasing, vendors and sponsors, I'm going to form,an organization where people sit together and they commit to each other in smaller groups and they. Meet regularly and we, instead of focusing on technology exploration and the role of CTO, we're going to focus on one thing and that is emotional intelligence. So then I didn't know how to name this thing. And I tell people, to get to the name Seven CTOs. I had the Zen moment where I closed my eyes, sat in my office and I was like, what the heck is this thing that I'm building? And then I sort of visualized, Oh, it's like, I'm sitting in a room with six or seven other people and we're committed to each other and we're learning from each other. And then I was like, Oh shit, this is called six, five, six CTOs. And I was like, I see six CTOs. And then I ran to whatever the domain name registrar was. And I was like, Oh, I do. I registered the number six CTOs. com. I had an Eureka moment. I ran out of my office and I shared with my friends that I founded six CTOs. And the first person that I shared it with. Said to me what sick you guys are a bunch of sick ctos like like you guys are sick You guys are you need help? You need the doctor like what and I was like, oh my goodness I have a phonetics problem and then I ran right back to my office and I knew I had the formula So I registered five ctos seven ctos eight ctos nine ctos ten ctos I think to this day i'm still paying for those domains but and then yeah, and then You I didn't want the group to be too small and I didn't want the group to be too large and landed on seven CTOs.

so that's the long version. So congratulations. You got the

really long answer.

[00:16:14] Jay: I love the long answer. Well, do you remember after you kinda rebranded and recalibrated what you wanted the group to be? Do you remember who the first member was?

[00:16:29] Etienne: That's a great question because, and I'm glad you asked that one because in the context of my story, You know, like I said, I had 300 or so enthusiasts in the San Diego, Austin, Portland CTO forum. Well, with grand, excitement, I announced that seven CTOs will rise from we're closing the meetup and we're launching seven CTOs and I lost all 300 people. Cause I walked around with a sign up sheet and it was a big event, big restaurant catered. Lots of people came out and I did my little spiel and not a single person signed up. In fact, One guy signed up who I think felt sorry for me. His name was Harold. I love you, Harold.

[00:17:32] Jay: Harold. Harold sounds like a good guy. 

[00:17:34] Etienne: Harold Gottschalk was an older guy who I think felt, I think he felt my energy and he was really bought into what I was saying. Yeah. So, Harold was the first guy to sign up. he didn't know what he was signing up for. I said it was going to be 200 bucks a month. And I think that's what threw everybody off because my. my. market research, my market validation was just night and day different from my ideal customer profile.

[00:18:07] Jay: And so I think in, my 300 people, naysayers defense, they were groomed on, Hey, free dinners. All I have to do is step away from my familyand talk and give. Then when I turned that around and I was like, well, listen, now we're gonna ask you to spend a half a day together and it's gonna cost you 200 bucks a month. Well, I lost everybody. So the good news is when I landed Harold, I was able to change my story and say, Hey, we have people signed up

You have like a, you should have like a statue of Harold, like somewhere or some sort of plaque for Harold. You know, maybe a moment of silence for

Harold. At the beginning of each of your meeting, it sounds like he was very. Integral, so you took this whole group and turn it on its head and then you had nobody basically, except for Harold.

God bless you. Harold. How did you rebuild it and kind of pitch this new cost based? Service or group that is longer and probably more engagement required than your previous dinners that you have to convince 

[00:19:21] Etienne: Yeah, well. 

[00:19:23] Jay: you build it into what it is now?

So what I did was, so remember I'm a CTO cat, so I'm not a sales guy.Your sales guy, I'm 

[00:19:33] Etienne: well now I 

[00:19:34] Jay: to put it out your sales guy. Don't

we all we know better than 

[00:19:38] Etienne: I learned the hard way. Yeah. So back then I was very much a CTO who fitted the mold. I was a supportive person. I wanted to please my CEO. I co founded the company we sold, but my, CEO drew was very much a out there guy building and evangelizing people.so, so I was very pragmatic in what I did. So I was very discouraged, obviously. I was like, Oh my goodness. So I was telling you earlier, Michael, my co founder sadly passed away this week. Michael, Michael was a believer. And so, so remember I said, I realized I need to get people to grow in their EQ.

And so I, we happened to have a coach. Her name was Michelle. She coached our founders, in the company we sold. So she knew, she knew my journey of how I was building this San Diego CTO forum. And then she said, Hey, you should really talk to my husband about, bringing some EQ and emotional intelligence juice to this organization.

I was like, that's exactly what I need. And so I pitched Michael on this and Michael was, I'm in.we talked about the equity and we're like, we're going to build this company. I went and formed it and it's, and it was off to the races. I would say his belief and his encouragement, you know, I was 20 years, his junior.

So I think he saw himself in me and, And so how did I build it from losing everybody? A, he kept believing in me. It's like, don't worry about it. We just don't, we just didn't target the right customer. Let's stay focused and keep going. So I, my co founder kept me going. Secondly. I did do a lot of dinners, so I did understand, I did ask questions and I did understand that most of the people that we were having dinners with were disclosing to me what they were struggling with. So I think I had a crash course in sort of flipping that. And saying, Hey, join seven CTOs and you will have a soundboard for all your ideas, a join seven CTOs and pitch people that care about you before you go and pitch the CEO on the changes you want to make. Hey, you are a CTO. You have a vision of your own career.

Don't be bogged down by this opportunity you have, but set yourself up for the grand arc of where you want to be. And so I was able to enroll and I actually enrolled six people on that. And then the 7th person, Bill Vue, was my 7th guy. I almost have, I mean I have a lot of love and respect for the 1st guy, but man, I will never forget closing the 7th guy.

I was like, wow, we are gonna start this forum, January 4, January 2014, with 7 frickin CTOs. And, So there was the, I knew what they needed and I pitched them and I, so yes, the third thing I did, I time boxed it. I said, just commit for one year and 200 a month is not sustainable. So I can see it, the price going up, but I will lock you in. For the rest of your membership, as long as you stay at 200 bucks a month. And guess what? 12, years later, bill view is still in seven CTOs holding onto that 200 bucks a

[00:23:31] Jay: He's loving that locked in right? 

[00:23:34] Etienne: Yes. And now it's a thousand dollars a month. And so bill is getting it. A sweet deal. Although the only had to do was pay for it in, you know, a decade of attendance. But, and so, and then let me just say this and then how I was able to sell on top of that was whenever I spoke with prospects, I would just say to them, we have members, we have forums. So I would make liberal use of the plural tense.

[00:24:05] Jay: Social proof, baby. Social proof is king.

[00:24:09] Etienne: And then we signed up our second forum and then our third forum, Michael was the resident coach for each of those three. Michael added such a gravitas to this whole thing. I mean, I was the snot nosed, know it all CTO. I mean, I'm an empathic dude, but even I have a chip on my shoulder. And Michael was just like, just the dad of the CTOs. He was so patient with us. So intentional could really just see right through the fighting siblings and just brought such a calm presence to those forums. and really that is. In the fabric of our branding, I mean, really, people to this day, even though Michael is no longer with us, and also wasn't with 7CTO's for quite a few years. That, the multiplication of the cells of a startup was really incubated with that very first cell, which was Michael and I, and it just is perpetuating. So it's a beautiful thing. And so now we have, you know, hundreds of members and several forums around the world. And it's a beautiful motion.

[00:25:29] Jay: How has the customer or your prospect changed that you go after today versus the one you went after 10 years ago? I feel like

[00:25:41] Etienne: The,the customer today. The person who signs up for 7CTO's No Questions Asked is the one who understands that coaching It's going to advance their career. Nowthe problem with a problem solving analytical brain who most likely sweated it out, learning new things, figuring things out by themselves with a heavy dose of imposter syndrome is that they will never think that. Oh, I could just ask someone? Wow, I can just, A, I can admit that I don't know, B, I can formulate my question in a way that isn't asshole ish, and 3, I am open to learning from others. Well, well, unfortunately, I mean, compared to 10 years ago, there was a lot more of that, and now I find that the person who signs up no questions asked is the person who already has that awareness. That coaching, peer groups, learning from others. Is, a critical skill to have in this area, the younger CTOs, the naive approach, the immature business mind, maybe zero executive presence. Yeah. Those people come to me with, Well, you know, who else is in seven CTOs or, you know, do you have people from Facebook and Google and, you know, like what can you teach me?

Well, you know, those people. You know, just are not going to be open to an organization like ours. So compared to 10 years ago, I had a lot more of that. And now I think coaching is not necessarily a swear word anymore. I also find that because more CEOs are signing up for coaching and understand the value that brings. They are of course, encouraging their other executives to go get coaching and peer groups, and that's, of course, they come to seven CTOs.

[00:27:58] Jay: I could talk to you for about three days before we get to the end of this conversation, but We're going to maybe we'll do a part 2 of this since I like you so much and we actually did this same conversation. Not the same conversation, but the same flavor of conversation offline when we met each other.

So I do think this is a recurring theme that we have a very, Open and kind of nice vibe together. So I think we should do a part 2.

[00:28:22] Etienne: If

[00:28:24] Jay: final question, non business related. This is for, Etienne, the man, maybe not the business guy, but just in general. you could do anything on earth and you knew you wouldn't fail, what would it be?

[00:28:39] Etienne: I could do anything on earth and I knew it wouldn't fail?

[00:28:43] Jay: Or you knew you couldn't fail, it or you?

[00:28:48] Etienne: wow. I would, I would just transform the education system on a global scale. I am so aware of the opportunities I got in a very, very, unfair systemas a white South African, just firsthand observation of the inequality that is created when education systems are discriminatory. And my, if I could have the guts to just say new school, new pedagogy, new. Dogma, I don't care what it is and subject kids to thatand bring a global curiosity that never gets extinguished and that no community system or sickness or institutional oppression could, you know, hurt that, man, I would do that.

[00:29:58] Jay: I love that answer. I've actually heard that a couple of times. So you're not alone. maybe not from the perspective of being maybe from that perspective, but maybe not as extreme since you live through kind of the South African. version of privileged education, but that's a great answer. I love that answer.

All right. If people want to find more about you. Or reach out to you for anything they heard today, how do they do that?

[00:30:21] Etienne: I'm curious what your answer is to that.

[00:30:24] Jay: People ask me this and I. I mean, I'll be honest. Mine is not. Super altruistic, just because, this is like something that I want to do, but I'm terrified. and I'm a student pilot, which is weird that I have this as my answer, but I would go skydiving.

[00:30:41] Etienne: Huh?

[00:30:43] Jay: I would love to experience it. I just don't want to die.

I mean, I have 6 kids, man. I can't. If I fall, if I jump out of a plane without an air, you know, with just a parachute, and it fails. That's like a tough, you know, I mean, how are you going to explain that? Like, I was, you know, I was at work on a Monday Tuesday. I jumped out of a plane. I'm dead now. That's kind of hard to explain to the kids.

But that would be my answer. My answer is skydiving or go to space. You know, something that inherently I'm terrified to do because I would be afraid to die for my 

[00:31:11] Etienne: Yeah, it's a, it's yeah, I love that. I, yeah,

[00:31:18] Jay: Have 

[00:31:18] Etienne: I think my,

[00:31:19] Jay: skydiving?

[00:31:20] Etienne: I did go skydiving

once and I will never do it again.I, yeah, that's a whole different episode and I don't want to, I don't want to, I'm in the camp of what you just said, like this is not worth it. But, I think if I was to go down that track, I think I'd feel the same way about scuba diving.

[00:31:43] Jay: Okay.

[00:31:44] Etienne: If I knew that I couldn't fail, and I wouldn't get hurt, And I wouldn't freak out.I would absolutely love to go to the sky, scuba, scuba diving. and I think I have the same concerns that you have about it, which is panicking and realizing I've got a body of water above me and I can't just, I can't just like go up and

fix it.

[00:32:12] Jay: Yep. Depends.

[00:32:14] Etienne: getting diseases from pressure, whatever they call that, sickness you get, yes, and then, you know, some prehistoric monster

[00:32:25] Jay: That's the point it gets 

[00:32:26] Etienne: on that Tuesday, it's going to reveal itself to the planet and I'm going to happen to be in its way.

[00:32:31] Jay: Or just one that we know about, like a shark that are very much like down there all the time. Like I see those videos, the guys on shark week, like down at the bottom, like feeding sharks, like on the ocean floor and they can't see in front of them. I'm like that. And the ones that go at night. Are you kidding me?

[00:32:46] Etienne: Why would you do that? Like you, you don't get to do life over. It's not like you can say, start at the beginning, you're done. If something goes wrong, you're done. And, but you see the thing that I want, so I've done snorkeling and snorkeling is so beautiful and it's such a wonderful feeling and you almost feel like you can hold your breath for days. But what I would love to experience is that sense of just full equilibrium where you are floating. You're basically floating.

[00:33:18] Jay: Right. 

[00:33:19] Etienne: And I, and that's something, but I can't imagine the get the bottle, the oxygen pushing in my throat into my lungs. And, you know, I'm an asthmatic as well. So I have an uber sensitivity to, you know, altitude and pollution.

and so I think if I was to join you in your answer, yeah, mine would be the opposite direction.

Scuba. 

[00:33:42] Jay: I like that. We're complete opposites about as high and as low as 

[00:33:46] Etienne: have you scuba dived?

[00:33:47] Jay: No, I have not.

[00:33:49] Etienne: Okay.

[00:33:49] Jay: My parents did it growing up, done a lot of snorkeling and stuff, but no, I haven't done it mainly because I wouldn't my on my bucket list is the great white shark. Cage, I definitely want to get in the cage and, like, be somewhat protected and get to see some of nature's, like, most incredible things that they've ever created.

That would be cool to me. I can do that. But, like, free water. Down where there's, you know, no, thank you. All right. If people want to find you and we'll talk about sharks and scuba diving or skydiving, or maybe even CTO stuff, how do they do that? What do they 

[00:34:26] Etienne: Well that's the other thing is when you are in that full equilibrium and you look down And y'all can't see nothing?

[00:34:33] Jay: Good.

[00:34:35] Etienne: Okay,

[00:34:36] Jay: Good.

[00:34:37] Etienne: you can find me. I have a just a website for all my stuff that points to everything else It's at etienex. com. So e t i e n e x dot comand go check out seven ctos.com.

If you're a founder or a CEO or a CTO, you want to join the most awesome community on the planet, for technical leaders, go to seven ctos.com. Yeah, and that's a good,

[00:35:04] Jay: Any events coming up that we should know about.

[00:35:07] Etienne: Yeah, we have our, annual, CTO conference, happening in San Diego in November. It's called 0111, so you can go to 0111conf.

com and, you know, it's a great way, two days, super experiential.it's not your sort of standard tech conference, although we do talk a lot of tech, But we do focus on, you know, where are my opportunities for breakthroughs and where are my breakdowns? So, yeah, it's a great conference for that as well.

and then next year we'll have a whole bunch of regional, Oh, one, one, one conferences. So, yeah,

[00:35:42] Jay: All right. 

[00:35:43] Etienne: having me, man. 

[00:35:43] Jay: it in the bio and we will stay in touch and maybe we'll do a part two of this. You're fantastic. I thank you for being on very much and I hope you have a good rest of your summer and a good rest of your week. All right.

[00:35:54] Etienne: Thank you.

Thanks for having Jay. Cheers.

[00:35:57] Jay: Have a good one. 

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