[00:00:28] Jay: Hi everyone.

Welcome to the First Customer Podcast. My name's Jay Aigner. Today I am lucky enough to be joined by Joel Montvelisky. He's the co-founder and pre chief product Officer at Practitest, special early morning episode here, on The First Customer because Joel is calling in from Israel. Joel, how are you buddy?

[00:00:44] Joel: Hey, Jay, actually pretty proud of you, man. managed to say my last name correctly. That's in, itself. That's already a half the show.

[00:00:53] Jay: we, I was saying before this. Known about practice forever. you know, you guys have done a great job kind of penetrating the space here in the United States. I mean, for years and years in qa. I've heard about you guys. I met Noah who was your chief marketing officer years ago.

We meet monthly. one of my just favorite human beings on earth, and finally got you on the show. So it's just a great kinda roundabout. the only thing was you did. Bring up the fact that you're a Cowboys fan, which I can't, for the life of me, understand. Oh God, get that away. just crush that cup.

why are You Well, I, of course I do. I'm in Philadelphia. You're in. this is not, I have the, I should be having my stuff here. Why are you an Eagles? Why are you a Cowboys fan?

[00:01:32] Joel: Well, man, long story short, I'm actually in Israel though I am a recovering Costa Rican. I was born and raised in Costa Rica. I actually got here when I was 21 and. There was a time where my father was selling medicine in Mexico and in Mexico City. They have like all these TV coming from Texas and the south and every single Sunday.

That's way back in the seventies, late seventies. They had every single Sunday they had cowboys game. So, you know, you're 4, 3, 4, 5 years old. You see cowboys getting older than you become a Cowboy fan. So I've been a Cowboy fan, not a new one. I've been following the Cowboys ever since. the white brothers Tony Dorsett, said, you know, like, the real thing.

[00:02:14] Jay: So you've put in your time. You've put in your time and seen some shitty football. And I, okay,

[00:02:19] Joel: Oh, come on.

[00:02:21] Jay: It's fine. Look,

I met recently 

[00:02:23] Joel: downs, but ups and downs.

[00:02:25] Jay: look, I mean, I would say there's just ups and then lots of downs. But anyway, it's fine. It's okay. we won't go there

Alright. So where, so you mentioned where you grew up. did growing up in Costa Rica or in Israel, did that have anything, any impact on you being an entrepreneur?

[00:02:38] Joel: I think that the way that I grew up in Costa Rica actually made an, made me an entrepreneur because my family had two kinds of people. Those were doctors and those who had like businesses in themselves. And even though I did study pre-med for about a year and a half, I realized I didn't wanna be a doctor.

So I went and started helping my family and their businesses. So when I started working here in Israel and testing, I did wanted to have that experience to try to make it on my own. Okay. So it was kind of an idea and that's actually how we got to practice this because of that in that, you know, bucket list thing.

Let's try to make it.

[00:03:16] Jay: All right. Well, I mean, you know, you've been testing since the nineties before. Most people who knew QA was a career, and I still find it, like, I still come across people that go like, wow, QA is still a job. Like even in 2025, like people don't know that QA is an actual profession. Was there like a specific project or something early on where you're like, there's gotta be a better way to do this, I gotta do testing?

Or did you just kind of fall into the career? How did you get

[00:03:40] Joel: Well, you know, I was studying in college here in Israel and my roommate's boyfriend came to visit him and his cousin came to visit him in, he said like, Hey, I have a startup, and it was 1998, so I have a startup and I'm looking for a tester, and I was interviewing at that point in order to be a bartender.

I asked him, okay, how much do you pay? And it was about three bucks more than an hour than bartending. I said, do I have a chair? I said, yeah, that's it. I was sold. So I got into it as an student, basically. I was doing it twice, three times a week, but I got hooked. You know, I, I found the discovery part of it very amazing.

and that startup itself, I started as, I think employee number seven. When I left about two years later, I, we were about 60 people and I was already managing about 20 people in the qa. So it was a nice journey, but it was by accident. I'm one of those accidental testers. I didn't plan it, so much so that for my first, I think three, four years, I wanted to get out of testing and I wanted to move into product management more than anything else until I really understood what testing was about.

[00:04:52] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:53] Joel: understood what this was about, it's not about finding bugs. It's really about how can we improve the release process? How can we make a better product for our customers? That's when I got hooked and I.

[00:05:05] Jay: Yeah. So many questions there. but did you describe before. After kind of the.com explosion and bubble, did QA change at all? was it more like, oh my God, we're gonna get stuff out, everything's growing. It's like exploding. It's like this big thing we gotta get, and then, you know, oh my God, the ball, the bottom falls out of the, you know, the entire ecosystem. did anything change for you QA wise during that period?

[00:05:32] Joel: Yeah, I am not sure that I can talk for everyone, but I can talk for myself and a lot of people that I was working the same ecosystem with, and I think that back in the late nineties, most of the people doing qa, either they were working on startups and were talking to her about the first.com bubble, like.

pets.com. I remember working in Silicon Valley that was like pets.com and no one could realize that you could buy dog food on the internet. Yeah. What for? How? Why would you do that? But anyways, so a lot of us working there, or you were testing for the Y 2K back and you know, the Y 2K back came and went and either it was never a thing or we did a pretty good job 'cause there was not a catastrophe.

The world, they'll fall. And then a lot of people started saying, okay, so that's done. What do we do? At least for me, it was kind of a discovery. Is it a profession? Is it not a profession? If it is a profession, what it is for. So there was a lot of discovery around how can we become professional testers?

'cause again, testing was not a profession. We're talking here before the STQP and stuff like that. and it, as I said, it took a while and I think that my. Flux capacitor moment that, that realization. yeah, I'm dating myself. I know,it was when I went to my first conference, I think it was a Star East conference.

I realized that there were people for whom testing was a real thing, was a profession. They had ideas and methodologies and ways of doing stuff, and that's where I said, okay, I need to read more. I need to learn more. That's when I actually started getting into it and once I realized what it was, then it changed my whole perspective and instead of being, let's find the bug, it became let's do risk analysis and let's work on test planning and.

Stuff that today you wouldn't do because working Agile is a complete different ball game. DevOps is even more exciting, I think. but it is when we realized that yeah, testing was a real thing.

[00:07:30] Jay: Why are there no QA colleges? Or no? No. Like everybody asks, and I'm sure you get this question all day, every day, just like I do. It's like, how do I get into qa? And I always say the same thing, like, I don't know, everybody ends up here by accident for the most part. why is there

no formal education for it?

[00:07:47] Joel: So Israel, I think that it's a little bit different. Europe also, but Israel specifically is a little bit different because there's a lot of people who are learning QA in like community colleges where you do like a one year training course that has an internship and then you go out into the field.

it used to be the case that QA was done by, computer science studies for engineering studies. I majored in industrial engineering. That's why I got into QA because I was an engineer. But there are institutions that are teaching people testing. Not so much, I think, I don't have a real answer for that.

I think that for a lot of us, it's either something that you fall into and that becomes more a vocation and than a profession. But there are some training courses right now, and I see more and more people who. In order to get into QA because they didn't go into computer science or, engineering.

Then they go through these courses and they enter that. There are still some people who get into QA as a stepping stone into development. Nothing against them. I know a lot of good developers used to be good testers. I think that the best developers used to good testers before. but it's a good question.

Why don't we have it? Do you really need a three year or four year education in order to be a good tester? I'm not sure.

[00:08:59] Jay: Yeah.

Yeah, I don't think so. I, 

[00:09:01] Joel: but you do need something again, need to think about that a little bit more.

[00:09:05] Jay: Yeah. No, I, but I think it's because it's, in my opinion on this is that it's, we're, you know, QA is still kind of a second class citizen as much as we've progressed, you know, I mean, I, you and I have been testing for a long time. You've been doing a little bit longer, but I mean, it used to be very much us versus them.

There was literally physical walls between development and QA where like, you know, they would. People would be pissed off if you put in a bug that, you know, it was something that they did. I think that has made a lot of progress. I feel like developers, especially as. You know, who develops these software products becomes more public and more aware.

Like people don't want their name out there on some shitty product, right? So I think, at least from my perspective, our teams, our interactions with development has improved over those years. But I, my thought about why there's no QA schools is, it's almost like a fallback, right? It's like you wanna be a product guy 'cause you build these cool, sexy products, you wanna be an engineer 'cause you get to go code and do these fun things.

And it's like, well I can't or don't wanna do either one of those things. I guess I'll do qa. you know, it feels like somebody wants to be in the SDLC or in the software development process. but there's just not a great on-ramp for them because it's not the sexy thing to do. It's kind of a second class citizen.

Maybe we should change that. We'll make a, maybe we'll make our, the first qa,

you know, one year college. I love that. Let's do that. All right. what was the spark that made you start Practitest? Was it frustration, opportunity, curiosity? Why did you start practice

test? 

[00:10:27] Joel: a little bit of both. Back in the day, I used to work for Mercury Interactive, and again, I say tester, I was a tester already had worked in three places I think. And I got an interview to be the test manager for test director back in the day. and it was amazing. It was like, wow, I don't know how am I even qualified to do that.

Apparently I was, so, I worked in Mercury, I was. Test again, manager for test director, we turn it into quality center. Back in the day, we're looking early, two thousands. Then I switch over to QTP, WinRunner, X runner, BPT, all the ones in there. And what happened was the company was acquired by hp.

And a lot of us didn't like the culture change and we decided to take a break. Again, mercury was a, an amazing company. I still find a lot of people who work there and it's like a Mercury family. but HP wasn't like that Again, nothing against them just didn't meet my, my, my approach. I took a year to do a little bit of consulting, testing, consulting, something like that, and we realized that.

There were two type of back then there were two type of organizations, those who worked with quality Center, a little bit of Microsoft tools and those working spreadsheets because there was nothing in the middle. 

[00:11:40] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:41] Joel: And I got together with people who I knew from a previous startup we had worked with, and I said, Hey guys, why don't we do it?

And we learned about it and we started as a kind of, internal project. We didn't raise any capital, we just started working on the application. And it caught on and it was amazing. But it was, I told myself as I told you I wanted to try something and when I saw the opportunity to do it on testing and I had a group of people who I knew also wanted to do something on their own, all the stars aligned and we just tried it.

But as I told myself. I was willing to say, Hey, I tried it. If it doesn't work out, nothing happened. I can go back and continue doing testing. but it did work out. We're talking about 8 18, 19 years ago.

[00:12:27] Jay: Was it an uphill battle and like an educational type sale to the companies that were using spreadsheets to like convince some of these technology executives that they needed to evolve their testing infrastructure and framework to be more robust and like have a tool around it. was it a lot to convince these people or were they just like, oh my God, we needed, we need this and we didn't, you know, we didn't have this before.

[00:12:53] Joel: I would like to say that I managed to convince a lot of people,

[00:12:56] Jay: Okay.

[00:12:57] Joel: but I didn't. Not only I didn't. I realized that I am not a good person coming to a VPR and D or a CI or CT and telling them, oh, you need testing. Not only was I not a good person, I didn't need to be because I realized that the best way to get new customers was to find those people who run into the fact that they need to have a better process.

Why you release a couple of faulty, releases or you grow or, you are acquired. There are quite a lot of different milestones that turn people into that realization that. God, we cannot continue doing testing as a byproduct or as an afterthought, and we need to get a better testing process. And when you start putting together a process, you realize that, hey, I need a tool.

and even today, you know what, it's not even about spreadsheets, but there are many products today we're not on the late two thousands. There are many plenty of products practice on the niche of companies who have. Let's say a need for a little bit more sophisticated test management. If you have three testers, there are plenty of pretty good tools within Jira.

You can use test management tools within Jira, but once you have five testers, six testers, seven testers, obviously 10 testers, you cannot work with Jira. The same goes if you have. 150 test cases, 200 test cases go work within Jira or again, Azure Dev, something like that. The moment that you go through a higher threshold and you need a really good solution, and that is where instead of educating people, we show them how we can really solve their problems.

So by finding that niche and working on it, then it's easier not to educate because I don't think testing is not sexy and in the best of times, we're one of those professionals like insurance. If you hear about testing, that depends that something went wrong on in the 

[00:14:46] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:46] Joel: but you need to have it in any case.

So that is why I think that it's easier for us to talk to organizations where they already realize that it's something. Okay. That's what we do there. There are plenty, plenty of fish indecision patents.

[00:15:01] Jay: That reminds me of my two analogies. One is that, qa, we are the janitors of the SDLC, right? We're there to clean up all the mess. And then two, I like to say, you know, we're like a funeral home, right? Like, you may not want us, or you may not want to visit us, but you'll see us eventually, right? You're gonna need us eventually.

Something. I wanted a better, non, less morbid, analogy, but I do feel like

[00:15:21] Joel: I am. I'm a li. I'm a little bit more optimistic. I like to think. I like to think that we are the x-ray technicians. of the SDLC in the sense that, well, sometimes the ailment or whatever you have is so obvious you don't really need to have x-rays or MRIs or good exams. Sometimes you need to get a little bit better understanding of what's going on.

That's where we come into play. So we are x-ray technicians, MRI, technicians, that are actually helping the team. To release better and on time, meaning why work blindly if you can actually know where you're gonna be operating?

[00:15:57] Jay: That's a much better analogy. Yours is much less

[00:16:00] Joel: I'm trying to keep 

[00:16:01] Jay: like, I, like yours 

[00:16:02] Joel: I'm trying to be optimistic here.

[00:16:04] Jay: I like yours. I like it a lot. well, who was your first customer at practice

and how did you get. 

[00:16:10] Joel: so we started working on a product and we didn't have anything to sell. we started and we created, as I said, it was a moonshining activity. and we started even, we didn't start with the testing module, we started with the pop tracker module, and then we added a test module that was like everything bundled and we said, Hey, we need to have a website, so let's have a website.

and we put a website with some pictures and I remember. Middle of the week, I got into the office and there was an email waiting for us of someone saying that they had worked with the system and they wanted to buy a license, it was this consulting company out of Australia from all places, and they wanted to buy a license to, I think it was five, seven people.

The problem was that we didn't have a way of getting money from them. Because we hadn't thought that anyone would be willing to pay. We didn't have a mature enough product, so someone was looking to pay. So I remember telling them, yeah, go ahead and work with that. We'll give you the payment options.

soon it took us about two Ds to realize the best way to do it was using PayPal. So we opened up PayPal account for practices, and that was our first customer. So it was, we were not even ready for them, I think. And, yeah, and again, people just started coming over.

[00:17:24] Jay: I mean, people trying to just give you money and figuring out how to accept it, I think is a good problem to have. I like that

[00:17:30] Joel: Well, if you think about it, we didn't have a sales team up until about three years ago. I was doing sales and I don't know how to sell them. So people were go, we're just demoing the product and people saying, Hey, it's nice. and, but yeah, up until about three years ago, we were literally selling our sales.

It was like the co the people doing support and success were just making demos on the farm.

[00:17:50] Jay: Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge that a little bit and say you probably are a better salesman than you're giving yourself credit for, because you got to the point where you needed a sales team, which means you were doing. Some founder led sales stuff that was getting, growing your team and getting you guys in a position to, to grow.

So, I mean, 

as founders, I think we like to say we're not salespeople when, you know, a lot of times we've got some of it inside

[00:18:11] Joel: we're not just people that were. We're founders and I try to explain that to people. You have kids, I have kids, and, my kids are perfect and my kids are gorgeous, and my kids are the most underrated kids in the world. And when I'm explaining about my kids through my eyes, then obviously everyone just want to steal them and grab them for them.

I think it's the same when you have an application, especially if you know why you made the stuff that you made. So yes, we have a great product. But I think that we're, I am able to explain not only what we have, but why do we have it in the flows inside of that. So I for sure it is the case. and yes, I think that every single founder has to be a little bit of a salesman for themselves, for even when you're hiring someone, you need to sell them the product when you're hiring someone.

So, so you have to, I agree with you. You have a little bit of a salesman. By the way, sales is not a bad word if 

[00:19:09] Jay: no, it's not. it is not. it's, it took me so long to realize that, I mean, so long. It's like you, well, you're used to salesman. You're used to window salesman and

car 

[00:19:19] Joel: Use car salesmen. We're not use cars. We're selling value.

[00:19:23] Jay: you're like, I don't want to be that guy. So you push it off for so long and you're like, I don't wanna, and then eventually you go, oh. I am a salesman and I am the one who has to tell people how incredible my kids or this product or whatever is. And you're like, so I totally agree with that. Let's switch gears a little bit.

You've written about, you know, mindful testing. what does that actually look like in practice? did that come from. Years of bug triage where you had to find some inner peace, so you didn't, you know, jump out the window. Like what, tell me about mindful testing. Are you a mindful guy? Are you into meditation in general?

Is that kinda your mindset or is this more specific to a flavor of testing?

[00:20:01] Joel: So I have a confession to make. I was growing up on the seventies, eighties, and nineties. People didn't really know what a DHD was,

[00:20:12] Jay: and as it happened when my kid. My oldest went to high school. His teacher told us that the kid has a DHD, and we're like, no way. And the whole first grade, we didn't go into that only until he went to second grade.

[00:20:26] Joel: We diagnosed him with a D, not even a DHD. And when we started asking how, where did he get it from? Because we read that it was like something you get from your parents. Then the doctor just looked at me and says, are you serious? And I was like, yeah, what about you are one of the biggest A DHD people I've seen and I got diagnosed and I have that.

So, for me, mindfulness has, I've always tried to find without knowing what I had it, I try to find ways to concentrate. I mean, sometimes it's hard music. Sometimes it's, candles. But I found that mindfulness. Really helps me. So I do it once or twice a day, sometimes three times a day, in order to be able to just let go of all the noise you have and if you have a d then, you know, so I did it and I realized how much it helps concentrating and going to that state where it's kind of a event state.

And I try to explain to people, when you're doing good testing and you're a good tester, many times you will. See a bug without realizing there's a bug, and feel that there's a bug and it takes you about three seconds to, to 30 seconds just to find where the bug is. So I think that happens. So for me, mindful testing is one of the ways.

So I use it personally, but I try to explain to people it, it can be a technique of, improving your testing better.

[00:21:46] Jay: So we talked earlier a little bit about, kind of how you. Went into management and started worrying about release cycles and cadence and kind of the testing infrastructure. do you, remember when you realized you were better in kind of a lead capacity than maybe, you know, hands-on keyboard doing, you know, QE work all day?

Like, was there, is there something about you that you realized was different? Was it just a natural progression? Like how did you get into leadership from being a hands-on keyboard tester?

[00:22:16] Joel: I think elimination mostly. I mentioned that I started working in a company and I was the first tester there. And when we hired the second tester, about three days after I got in, we were still like working together. When we got the third tester, then, the manager of r and d said, Hey, we need someone to do, to be a lead.

You started first of go ahead and lead, and I had no clue what testing was, but I started leading the testing that I didn't know about, and I think it was by mistake that I went there. I cannot say that I'm the best manager there is. I am still too much of a hands-on guy. so even when I'm leading something, I will go ahead and do the research and do the stuff.

so I think that it's more, there's a very big difference between leadership and management. Leadership is understanding where you want to go and convincing everyone where you need to go and making sure that they trust you on that. Whereas management is. A lot of organization. I'm not the most organized guy, so I'm better at finding good managers who work with me and letting them manage.

I like a lot,I like working a lot of with people, so I think that's one of the reasons that even my job as chief product officer is working with product, working with sales, working with customer success, meeting a lot of customers, and trying to be that pivot. That defines all the information and knows how to channel it.

I would like to be a better manager. maybe I can be, but I think that my, my real added value is being in a lot of places and trying to connect people around it.

[00:23:48] Jay: Well, it sounds like you've kind of nailed the. The visionary role in the EOS model, if you follow that at all. It's very, you know, you, the, you have a lot of great ideas, but you supplement yourself with teams to help get it done, which I think is the, kinda the mark of a really good, leader. And to that, you've led teams, you've mentored testers, I'm sure you've built a product. what's, you know, one mistake as a leader, that ended up teaching you the most?

[00:24:15] Joel: I think that speaking too much and not listening enough, especially when you're trying to. Sell without selling something. and you need to show yourself being very secure in what you're doing, which you have to be, again, imposter syndrome is a real thing. And I think that most of people who don't have imposter syndrome, I wouldn't really trust them because it means that they're not, self-aware of what they're doing.

but I think that as you start speaking, sometimes you miss out on good advice from people. 

[00:24:46] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:47] Joel: years I've started to listen more and challenge myself based on what people tell me, even if it hurts. I think that especially when it hurts, when someone tells you that you're doing something wrong, our reflex is to explain to them why we didn't, why it's not wrong.

Instead of saying, wait a second. Let me see it from your eyes and then try to learn. that is the biggest thing, and again, I can think of a gazillion places during my whole history in practice, outside of practice where I should have, I could have worked less hard and more efficiently if I could have only listened to people and what they were saying.

And I want to believe that I do it better now.

[00:25:33] Jay: I love that so much non-judgmental kind of, information. intake is a real thing, man.

[00:25:40] Joel: the way, you are going to be judgemental. The reflex, the, that, I don't know the first reflex is going to be to say, no, I was right, or I had good reasons for doing that, or you don't see it my way. But once you learn to take that step back to, to keep quiet, to keep that little, I call it the little Joel who's actually all the time telling you stuff, you, you tell that little Joel to be quiet, then you can actually listen better and get good advice.

Again, not every advice gonna be good, but there's quite a lot of good advice that you could get if you keep quietly a little bit more.

[00:26:16] Jay: If you could whisper one thing into the ear of every tester starting their career today, what would it be?

[00:26:23] Joel: Don't stop learning ever. I think that a lot of testers who are right now in their forties and fifties are afraid of ai, for example, and they see AI as a threat where they could be looking at it as their biggest accelerator ever. It happened with automation back in the day. Now it's ai. It used to be agile.

I think that as testers, we need to understand that we're providing a service to the development team. And if there are new tools, new methodologies, new anything, then we need to continue learning. And as we grow older, then expanding that virtual toolbox of ours becomes harder. So.

[00:27:07] Jay: love that. I love it so much. I could not agree more. It's a force multiplier.

It's not a, it's not something to be, it's not something to be scared of. be the farmer that uses the tractor, right. Not the guy who goes, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna plant these by hand. Right. You want to be using whatever tools to be better at what you're doing.

So I completely agree. I mean, I met the CTO of. Deloitte at a conference like a couple weeks ago, and he was saying, we haven't fired a single developer or QA engineer. We have improved their, you know, efficiency by 30% by using these tools, which means we get to get more done.

Right? People aren't getting fired.

We're using it to enhance them.

[00:27:41] Joel: we need to understand that, as you said, it's a force multiplier. If you're doing something wrong, it'll be multiplied as well.

[00:27:48] Jay: That's a great

[00:27:49] Joel: So no, and I see it. 

[00:27:50] Jay: That's a great 

[00:27:51] Joel: I see it so much. Right now, there's this strength of no-code automation, for example. And again, I have, I don't want to, I'm not gonna mention anyone specifically, but I think that us as vendors, if back in the day our.

Virtual scene was to sell record replay. Oh. You can record the script and then it'll play back without doing anything. People who are saying, you can just let AI write your script and it'll play seamlessly for as much as possible. No ai, it's a force multiplier, but it's a way of getting it, it's a shortcut creator.

if you are not paying attention, if you're not reading, if you're not understanding what you're putting there, then it'll be worse than, it's not only about testing. I've seen it multiple times, even in practices with developers who. Going to, I don't know, chat, g PT or any other system to get code.

And if you understand what you're getting into, then you get great ideas. If you're gonna plug and play, it'll break the system. Okay. And that's why we have test. The same goes with testing. So it's a force multiplier that we need to treat with respect.

[00:28:58] Jay: I love that with respect. All right, I got, I, we need to have like five of these shows. There's so much we could talk about. I love. God, I love this so much. I mean, look, I love all my guests. I've had some really cool guests on the show, but when I get to nerd out about QA and business and QA tools, like all at the same time, it's just, I can't tell you how, like I just, I could have this conversation all day. Let's finish with one question about Joel, not about practice, not about qa, just Joel b and Joel, if he could do anything on earth and he knew you wouldn't fail, what would it be?

[00:29:36] Joel: I would go on a five year world tour,

[00:29:41] Jay: Love that. Where would you go first?

[00:29:46] Joel: I would go back to Japan. I love Japan. I've been there a number of times, but only on business. And the more I go there, the more that I realize that they're incredibly, I don't know. Interesting. So I think I, I could spend a year in Japan just like walking around.

[00:30:00] Jay: I would love. Yeah. I've never been, I'm dying to go. I'm dying. That's a great one. I would do that tomorrow if I could. and you can do this and wouldn't fail, so you could just go right now. This is a great opportunity for you to do that. So, Joel, you're fantastic. I love, I, I love your story. I love, your team.

I love the product. if you wanna find out more just about QA or just what they heard today, how do they reach you directly?

[00:30:23] Joel: The best way to reach me is via LinkedIn. Just go to my LinkedIn profile. I think it's the best way. You can also write to me, joel@practitest.com. You know, it's when you're one of the founders. It's the simplest emails, but I think that LinkedIn would be my preferred approach.

[00:30:36] Jay: All right. Well, Joel, you're fantastic. have a great rest of your week. go birds, not cowboys and no, don't do it. Oh, there it is. I knew it was going. This is always in the background, so I mean, you can't, you know, you can't overtake the birds with that, but that's fine. Joel, you're awesome. Thank you very much. We'll catch up again soon and have a good rest of your

[00:30:54] Joel: Thanks for having me, Jay. It was actually awesome.

[00:30:57] Jay: See you buddy. 

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